Windows 7 Backup Program
I just completed a backup using the default backup setting in the Windows 7 Beta. Has anyone tried rebuilding a system from this on new hard disks? Do I just put in the restore cd and use the backup drive? I'm asking because only user data appears in the restore dialog,but the contents of my backup show as: Libraries and default folders for users and system image. So can I do a complete system restore from this backup?
January 31st, 2009 2:37am

If you've got the C:\Windows folder, the C:\Program Files and C:\Program Data folders included in your backup - i.e. a FULL backup - then in theory, you could restore the backup - provided you had something to extract the data from the backup file. That would usually mean another computer with Windows 7 loaded on it, extracting from the backup to another hard drive.
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January 31st, 2009 2:48pm

Wolfie2k6, Thanks for your reply. Here is my confusion. In the past, the Windows backup program would let me do something called a Full Backup. It was quite explicit the I could restore the complete system in the event of a hard drive failure using a restore disk and the backup I had create. In Windows 7 Beta that option isn't the same. It alows me tomake a backup that contains "Libraries and default folders for users and system images." I can also create a recovery disk. What is unclear to me is whether this is sufficient to do a Full Restore onto a new hard drive if the old one should fail. In an era were software downloads are replacing physical media and DRM is tying not only our Music and Video, but sometimes our Programs to a single machine, a method for restoring a complete system is absolutely essential.
January 31st, 2009 8:05pm

Karl,I had a look at the program and I see your points.According to the backup utility configuration screen, if you choose the option to choose your own backup options, the backup says: "A system image is a copy of the drives required for Windows to run. You can use it to restore your computer if it stops working."That would imply it's a full enough backup - however, once again, the issue here is the restore process. If you've got bare metal because your hard drive dropped dead and you had to replace it, you need something to DO the restore. That usuallly means either the original Windows disk, the OEM disk image disk, or something along those lines. Once you've got the base install back, you can restore Windows to the way it was via the backup you made. That SHOULD restore the system back to the way it was. Of course, your mileage may vary...There are a number of caveats to this, of course... For instance, if the bits on the hard drive were corrupt when you backed up, your backup may be worthless. Now... There IS one intriguing option to be found on the Backup and Restore control panel icon... It seems to be going one step further than it has in the past. There's now an option to create a System Repair Disk: "A system repair disc can be used to boot your computer. It also contains Windows system recovery tools that can help you recover Windows from a serious error or restore your computer from a system image."So, it could be assumed that a backup that includes the system image, in conjunction with the repair disk could then restore a system with a bare metal drive. I'm not sure how well this works, I personally haven't tried it.
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January 31st, 2009 10:00pm

"A system image is a copy of the drives required for Windows to run. You can use it to restore your computer if it stops working."That would imply it's a full enough backup Wolfie2k2, Thanks again for your thoughful reply. Like you I hope and assume that this is making a full backup. But that statement you quote doesn'tquite give me confidence that all the software, including 3rd party programs,is being backed up. Here is why:I've already made a backup and a System Repair disk. After finishing the backup I tried the file restoration from backup utility. The only files that where available to restore where from the "users" folder. Nothing else, nada. If you save a file anywhere else on the system you are out of luck, at least from this utility.EDIT: It occurs to me, since I'm mostly familiar with backup in XP and Server2003, that this may be the way the utility works in Vista.Now it may well be that we can restore the entire system from the recovery disk and backup. I guess the thing to do is just to try it. At the moment I am short the extra drives needed for this process. So I'm hoping that someone else has tested this and can just tell me "yes, it works."I'm a littlesuprised that Backup and Restoration is one of the techs thatis not supported in the Beta forums. If there was one part of the system I'd want to make sure was fully working when I shipped, it would be that one.
January 31st, 2009 10:40pm

Ok.. Karl... Silly question but... It's gotta be asked. The backed up data - how big is the file?If you figure the Win 7 distribution ISO was about 2.6 GB and it expands out to 8 - 9 GB , and you figure in you've got another GB or two worth of stuff on there - apps, programs, data, files, etc... You should be easily able to tell if you've got the Windows and Program * folders. Even if it uses compression, if you've only got a GB or so of stuff in the file, it's probably not going to have ALL of the disk backed up. Then again, the system repair disk probably DOES have the bulk of Win 7 stored on it.
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February 1st, 2009 1:49am

Oh man, almost 1 tb.Your right, it should be easy to tell. But I loaded a lot of media onto the system. I've got almost no 3rd party apps at this point and the ones I've got are small. I can see the system image is about 80gb. Assuming it doesn't have any of the "users" file stuff it in, I've got no idea what is making it so big. But I've got the system spread across 2 disk, with video on one. If the system image doesn't include the video disk, doesn't include recorded TV, but does include music files, that might about explain it.And yeah, I should have test the backup system before I added all that stuff. :)BTW: The recover disk fits on one standard cd, not dvd, so I don't think there is much but drivers on it.
February 1st, 2009 3:35am

egads said: It does not backup the O/S or drivers or even programs. Just the personal data you generate. By "full", they apparently are distinguishing from the normal,per-date incremental backup.Wow, that's disturbing to hear. I've only tried to do a backup recovery on one Vista installation. It did fail, but I was trying to move to different machine. I assume it would have worked on the same hardware.
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February 1st, 2009 10:02pm

What you were looking for was "Complete PC Backup" which is only available in Business and Ultimate.Rating posts helps other users Mark L. Ferguson MS-MVP
February 12th, 2009 9:09pm

All my Vista installs are Ultimate. I haven't needed a "bare-metal" restore yet, but I'm really hopeful when I do the Complete Backup will work.
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February 12th, 2009 11:29pm

for a while now I have successfully used Acronis TI and DD. am constantly creating backup images as I change/add things, and occasionally I need to back up to a previous one. Works great for me. I also have Paragon, but I think they are bugy - at least for me - so I don't use them. Kris -------- Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P, E7200 2.53@3.8ghz, 2x1gb OCZ Reaper1150@1203, EVGA 9800GTX+ N873 , BFG GS-650, Vista Ult 32 SP1 / Win 7 7000
February 14th, 2009 8:08am

KrisM77 said: for a while now I have successfully used. . .DD. am constantly creating backup images as I change/add things, and occasionally I need to back up to a previous one. Works great for me. Kris, Are you saying you've used the UNIX dd utility to do backup and restore for Windows installations? I'm curious if that works well, espcially regarding the DRM situation. I've got a XP-MCE drive that is beginning to failin deep freeze and I'm looking for a way to restore it with the DRM intact. I've been able to backup everything, BUT the system state (which keeps failing on some COM+ and the reg state issues, but I can backup the reg separately.) I'm worried when I dorestore it I'll lose my permissions.
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February 14th, 2009 7:33pm

I use the commercial program Acronis True Image 2009 ("TI") to back up and restore partitions, and I have done that a lot with Win7. I use the commercial program Acronis Disk Director ("DD") to do things like mark partitions hidden or not, or active or not. I use both of these programs under windows, or standalone via their respective boot CD . Sorry if I confused.For example: Every so often, as I'm going along in my adding applications and simply using Win7, I create an image of Win7 partition. Recently I ran into a problem where an installer was giving me a x05 access error. I was sure this had worked previously, so I restored back to the image that was 5 days previous, and tested the install and it worked. so I saved myself a TON of effort and having to go back to the beginning and reinstall Win7 and all apps. I only "lost" 5 days, and I realy hadn't done much during that time that changed the opsys.This is something I have been doing for years, now - whenever I install or re-install an opsys. : I will install it, and mod it perhaps up to adding chipset mods, and then back it up with Acronis True Image. Then I go ahead and start adding applications. And every so often I will stop and create another image.I am lazy! I don't want to have to go back and do everything over if something gets screwy - I just restore to the previous image that worked and go forward again. I can also do blue sky testing - for example, if I wonder if a problem I am experiencing is ""caused"" by an SP, I can simply a. back up where I am.b. restore to an image that was before the SPc. try the offending issue. and find out!then d. restore back to where I am now. But now I am working with knowledge, rather than wondering! Kris -------- Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P, E7200 2.53@3.8ghz, 2x1gb OCZ Reaper1150@1203, EVGA 9800GTX+ N873 , BFG GS-650, Vista Ult 32 SP1 / Win 7 7000
February 14th, 2009 8:09pm

Okay, that's a funny coincidence because the UNIX utility ddalso does disk images. So do you have any issues with DRM? I know Microsoft warns against using third party backup because they say it might invalidate DRM permissions.
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February 14th, 2009 8:17pm

Karl Essinger said: Okay, that's a funny coincidence because the UNIX utility ddalso does disk images. So do you have any issues with DRM? I know Microsoft warns against using third party backup because they say it might invalidate DRM permissions.LOL on me - I had to google to find DRM - Digital Rights Management - aka copy protection.Gotta say, I probably wouldn't know as I never try to copy anything illegal. When I torrent, I grab stuff that is legal but simply not available. I was using Netflix up until last week and had no probs with playing any DVDs incl Blu-Ray. I am HDMI to HDMI on Hannspree HF289H monitor.Don't know if it's related but I always immediately turn off User Account Control settings as I am the only person on my computer and I'm a geek. I did bump it to 1 as I heard that it blocks Gadgets in the 7000 beta, which it does, but then set it back down to 0 again.But I never have security problems. I run behind Windows Firewall (I've been too lazy to put Kerio/Sunbelt up), and Avast A/V is always running and this seems to work well - especially when bittorrenting, as much of the stuff out there is simply a trojan. I use AdAware and was just fooling with Malwarebytes Anti-Malware (so no opinion yet).Kris -------- Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P, E7200 2.53@3.8ghz, 2x1gb OCZ Reaper1150@1203, EVGA 9800GTX+ N873 , BFG GS-650, Vista Ult 32 SP1 / Win 7 7000
February 14th, 2009 8:29pm

KrisM77 said: LOL on me - I had to google to find DRM - Digital Rights Management - aka copy protection.Gotta say, I probably wouldn't know as I never try to copy anything illegal. When I torrent, I grab stuff that is legal but simply not available.Ah, alright. So you are really not the right person to ask about that. :) I'm not talking about copying anything illegally or otherwise. Quite the opposite. I'm talking about stuff you pay to download like Amazon Unbox, Napster, etc. You can build up quite an investment in that kinda stuff.
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February 14th, 2009 8:37pm

Karl Essinger said:KrisM77 said: LOL on me - I had to google to find DRM - Digital Rights Management - aka copy protection.Gotta say, I probably wouldn't know as I never try to copy anything illegal. When I torrent, I grab stuff that is legal but simply not available.Ah, alright. So you are really not the right person to ask about that. :) I'm not talking about copying anything illegally or otherwise. Quite the opposite. I'm talking about stuff you pay to download like Amazon Unbox, Napster, etc. You can build up quite an investment in that kinda stuff.AH! Yes, you are correct - I'm not the one to ask about that! My guess is that it would not be a problem, but you won't know until you try it... Good luck with it!Kris -------- Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P, E7200 2.53@3.8ghz, 2x1gb OCZ Reaper1150@1203, EVGA 9800GTX+ N873 , BFG GS-650, Vista Ult 32 SP1 / Win 7 7000
February 14th, 2009 9:36pm

Unless you are using Vista Ultimate, Business or Enterprise editions then you won't have access to Complete PC Backup. As the name suggests Complete PC Backup creates an image of your drive which, theoretically, can be used to transfer the image to another drive etc. I haven't tried using Complete PC Backup to image the drive back to another hard drive but I have used it to image the drive to its original hard drive and this worked fine. As you say it was simply a case of inserting the Vista DVD into the DVD-ROM, selecting Repair and then choosing Complete PC Backup option.Having said all that I personally wouldn't rely upon Complete PC Backup. Although it did what i asked of it I did, unfortunately, find it rather temperamental - and let's face it a temperamental backup applications is 'not' what you want when you have critical data. In particular I found that, when creating another full image ( I have to say that I never used incremental backups, I also deleted the old image prior to creating another (I did, fortunately, also have an image of that image, so nothing was lost.), even though I had deleted the original image, so technically, the backup drive was 'empty' Complete PC Backup wouldn';t create another backup because it insisted the drive was full, which, of course, it wasn't.From my point of view there are far better imaging applications than those that come with Vista. For preference I always recommend Acronis True Image Home 2009.John Barnett - Windows XP Associate Expert; Windows Desktop Experience. - Web: http://www.winuser.co.uk; Web: http://xphelpandsupport.mvps.org; Web: http://vistasupport.mvps.org
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February 14th, 2009 11:19pm

Your Welcome, egads. It is more useful to the user to know an applications shortfalls as well as its good points; that way you are under no illusions if something does go wrong. Backups are extremely important and the one thing you do not want is for the backup to fail when you most need it.John Barnett - Windows XP Associate Expert; Windows Desktop Experience. - Web: http://www.winuser.co.uk; Web: http://xphelpandsupport.mvps.org; Web: http://vistasupport.mvps.org
February 15th, 2009 3:55pm

John_Barnett said: the one thing you do not want is for the backup to fail when you most need it.John Barnett - Windows XP Associate Expert; Windows Desktop Experience. - Web: http://www.winuser.co.uk; Web: http://xphelpandsupport.mvps.org; Web: http://vistasupport.mvps.orgamen to that one!!!Kris -------- Gigabyte GA-EP45-UD3P, E7200 2.53@3.8ghz, 2x1gb OCZ Reaper1150@1203, EVGA 9800GTX+ N873 , BFG GS-650, Vista Ult 32 SP1 / Win 7 7000
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February 15th, 2009 8:10pm

Hi everyone,Thanks for using Windows Backup and giving critical feedback. Let me try to clarify some of your concerns.The default option in Windows 7 backup actually backs up files in libraries and user folders of all users and alsoperforms a system image (known as CompletePC backup in the earlier versions). What you see in the Restore Files option on the Backup and Restore Control Panel is only the files that were included in backup (which is only the user folders if you have selected the default option). Other than that, the system image has a complete image of all the drives which are required by the OS to run (typically, the system volume and the boot volume). This backup is not browsable through the UI. It is stored in a VHD format under WindowsImageBackup directory onthe backup target. And, this is the backup that gets used when you try to do a bare metal recovery of your machine. So, in case your computer stops working, you can perform a bare metal recovery using a repair disc / Windows installation disc and restore the image that got created as part of the backup. All the contentsof your critical drives, including programinstallations will be restored. In case youare restoring to new hardware, you will need to use the advanced recovery option of "Format and repartition the disks".This recovery operationwill recreate thecomplete disk layoutcontained in the imageand recover critical volumesof your machine onto the new hardware after formatting it.You can then restore the data on the other (non critical)volumes using the Restore files option. Another clarification is that the System repair disc does not have the complete image of the OS. It simply is a bootable disc that lets you boot into the recovery environment to perform recovery operations if your computer stops booting. Hope this provides some clarity.Thanks,Sneha [MSFT]
May 25th, 2009 2:22pm

Hi.Someone above mentioned about compression (Wolfie2k6)while doing backup. I've done backup, but backed up files seems haven't been compressed (about 30 GB were taken down from destination disk, but info said, thay backup size will be 18,6 GB). I have chosen custom backup settings (drivers, my libraries and system image). Is there any solution to set the compression priority, best on highest (high compression with good quality)? If any?
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May 25th, 2009 10:16pm

Hi. Someone above mentioned about compression (Wolfie2k6 )while doing backup. I've done backup, but backed up files seems haven't been compressed (about 30 GB were taken down from destination disk, but info said, thay backup size will be 18,6 GB). I have chosen custom backup settings (drivers, my libraries and system image). Is there any solution to set the compression priority, best on highest (high compression with good quality)? If any? Someone knows that?
June 2nd, 2009 11:29pm

Hi ryniek,Windows backup compressesdata filesto an optimal level that is inbuilt. File types that are already compressed (like .zip, .jpg, .mpg) are not attempted to be compressed further. This could explain the size of your backup. In the current version, we do not have a way for the users to specify/customize the compression level to be applied. We will take the feedback for the next release.Thanks,Sneha [MSFT]
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June 3rd, 2009 11:40am

Hi ryniek,Windows backup compressesdata filesto an optimal level that is inbuilt. File types that are already compressed (like .zip, .jpg, .mpg) are not attempted to be compressed further. This could explain the size of your backup. In the current version, we do not have a way for the users to specify/customize the compression level to be applied. We will take the feedback for the next release.Thanks,Sneha [MSFT] Ok, thanks for the answer. :)I hope so.
June 17th, 2009 2:31pm

I applaud Microsoft for finally providing bare metal recovery! I have had this capability since PowerQuest DriveImage in the 1990s, so it's about time a modern OS included it as well. For this, I thank you! That said, it does not surprise me that booting from the Win7 DVD gives a less-than-full-featured recovery console, compared to Ghost or TrueImage. What does surprise me is that the interface is more bare-bones than the recovery console of Windows Home Server. In Win 7's console, I must KNOW the path to the image file I want to use. REALLY? You couldn't see fit to put a "browse" button? Or a "search" button? This is just SAD. The WHS recovery console searches for my home server and then searches for available backups. I just cannot believe that I don't get browse/search to find my image file. Really inconvenient that I had to go to another PC and FIND the image myself to come back and type it in a box. Drive Image gave me "browse" in 1997. So, as much as I love the feature, the implementation was really lacking. End of rant. :)
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August 28th, 2009 3:56pm

Acronis folks. Yeah, its an extra expense, but......I've done (unfortunately) several "bare metal" recoveries using it over the last few years, and it has never failed to produce an exact duplicate of the machine before it blew up.The problem that Windows has with a motherboard swap (it may not boot and in Win7 it can be UNRECOVERABLE, unlike in XP) remains however. Windows 7 appears to have an unavoidable dependency on the ICH chipset on the motherboard - if yours varies from what was in there before (which can happen quite easily if you have a mobo blow up) you're screwed - with XP you could reload using Acronis and then do an "upgrade install" from your original XP media, and you were ok.With Win7 this FAILS since an upgrade can't be run without a booted, running system (no, booting to recovery mode is not sufficient) and as such if you run into a disk driver problem (such as the ICH issue) you're done and your backup is worthless.To my knowledge there is no way to get out of this trap with Windows 7; I've spent several days trying to find one. It is a very serious risk - backup (irrespective of how) now only protects you from a disk (or related) hardware failure; a mobo failure that cannot be resolved with an identical motherboard risks loss of the system state with no means of recovery.
August 28th, 2009 6:20pm

Many years ago, I needed to do a bare metal recovery of a Windows 2003 (or was it 2000?) to different HW before Symantec or others supported such a thing. I remember the BSOD the first time I tried to boot. I recall using Bart PE, manually copying the needed drivers, and then using Regedit to add in the missing services and links, based on the differences between a fresh install of the OS and what was in my image. I think it took me a half day or maybe an entire day to get it working. It was NOT easy and is not something I recommend. But it did save me a LOT of time getting that server operational. Anyway, self-congratulations aside<g>, I wonder if you could try something similar? Not that you should have to, but.... Funny how many cool things from XP won't work in this state-of-the-art OS. I'm still ticked that I cannot easily relocate all user profiles to D: with a simple line in an unattend file like I did in XP and Win 2K for a decade. Oh, the price of progress!
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August 28th, 2009 6:48pm

If you can figure out what the proper drivers are and/or can load on the new machine, yes. What do you do in a small business where the license was a retail copy?I suppose you COULD load it (unactivated) and then root around with regedit, but that's not going to be a reasonable exercise. This sort of thing is purely punitive - there's no reason to prohibit an in-place install off a booted DVD. I know why they're doing it (they want to prevent you from upgrading if "Genuine Advantage" validation hasn't passed) but the fact remains that this means that a mobo failure costs you the ability to restore and get back in business, with no realistic way out of the box other than to attach the old disk to the newly-loaded machine (or do a data-only restore from the archive), forcing a from-scratch load of all the software. This is a ridiculous waste of time for the small enterprise user who doesn't have a full-time IT department and consistent hardware where a "swap a box" game can be played.With that said for the "general case" for the personal user (who probably has Home Premium) I recommend Acronis TI Home; it works and I have tested it extensively with Win7. It also has "try and decide" which is a really nice feature that gives you the ability to dork with something that might be dangerous and then abandon it as if it never happened if you're unhappy. There are times when I've been messing with some peripheral or driver thatthis has saved me a LOT of hassle as the internal system checkpoint only covers system files while "try and decide" covers ALL changes made to the system.
August 28th, 2009 7:27pm

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