I’m reading a thread in Windows security with 75 posts where I could see my problem and users pointing to several solutions, But I couldn’t see a word of someone from Microsoft, telling something about the problem and, at least, a kind word telling us what Microsoft is doing to solve the problem. The problem is that we, the administrators and owners, cannot access the folders off our own accounts. I couldn’t access almost no one folder from my account in C: Someone discovered that if we exclude the “everyone” deny reading the access is granted. And it’s true. But why is that deny there? Why did Windows put it there during installation? And why does Windows restore it, I don’t know why or when? And, why, when I open Application data, in All users, what I get is the parent directory of Application data, with Application data Within again, and if I open Application data same thing happens, and again, and again,… Maybe the MFT file of Application Data is directing to the Index of it’s parent directory. But why does that happen and when will you correct that. When I open Local Definitions in My user account I have the same problem. How many other problems that I couldn’t yet notice because I didn’t go through them. But, as I go through them, maybe some applications have to go through similar problems, and afterwards don’t work properly. We communicate our problem and they try to solve it. They hear us, and they communicate with us. With our without success, at least they are there. But Microsoft isn’t there. I cannot communicate with Microsoft. And my only crime was, to buy a computer with the operating system installed. I must get the help from the computer assembler. I said correctly – COMPUTER ASSEMBLER. What does he know of Windows Operating System? What are it’s chances of solving our problem. I said OUR problem, but I think it is more a MICROSOFT problem. Effectively, your Operating System Windows 7, in my case Ultimate version, is not working properly. And where is Microsoft. At least you could be at the forums, our only chance to communicate. By I don’t see you there. I don’t see there a serious and professional post of a Microsoft specialist. It’s not a shame to say that there is a problem which is being solved. At least you say you are there to hear us and help us. I am very grateful to Bill Gates because he is the responsible for the great development of informatics science, because he gave access to the real use of computer to the common people. But, look. The world History tells us that all the great conquerors fallen down when they thought they were unbeatable. And I am very sorry to see the comportment assumed by the actual responsibles of Microsoft, closed in a shell, thinking of their clients and users only as buyers and not as users.

Calm down! What is your question now? Some folders are junction points and no real folders!"A programmer is just a tool which converts caffeine into code" CLIP- Stellvertreter http://www.winvistaside.de/

Can you please define me, in NTFS, what exactly is a junction point which shows in Windows explorer as a folder?

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:31:30 +0000, joao_silva wrote: > Can you please define me, in NTFS, what exactly is a junction point which shows in Windows explorer as a folder? Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS_junction_point Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003 Ken Blake

Thanks Ken Now, in the context of my question what as junction point to do with it

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 22:21:14 +0000, joao_silva wrote: > Thanks Ken > > Now, in the context of my question what as junction point to do with it You're welcome, but I don't understand your question above. What does it have to do with *what*? Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003 Ken Blake

"And, why, when I open Application data, in All users, what I get is the parent directory of Application data, with Application data Within again, and if I open Application data same thing happens, and again, and again,… Maybe the MFT file of Application Data is directing to the Index of it’s parent directory. But why does that happen and when will you correct that." You know Ken. This is the reason why I think forums are sometomes useless. Did you notice the time we have lost sppeaking of useless questions around the main one. Anf till now i didn't have any serial and professional answer to my question, Look Ken. I'm talking of folders. Not of links to folders. As an expert you must know the structure of NTFS file system. A folder is a file in MFT. And as a folder, that file has not a $Data atribute but an "Index_Root and an $Index_allocation atributes, which refer to the cluster where its description begins. And when I open it, what happens? He describes it's parent folder, where itself is included. Can you answer to the question now, please, or leave it as it is, letting the real experts to give an opinion?

On Wed, 2 Jun 2010 23:34:40 +0000, joao_silva wrote: > Can you answer to the question now, please, or leave it as it is, letting the real experts to give an opinion? With an attitude like yours, no, I won't even try to help you. Goodbye. Ken Blake, Microsoft MVP (Windows Desktop Experience) since 2003 Ken Blake

Hi joao_silva These forums are a freeely available resource provided by Microsoft. There are Microsoft Support Engineers who post here, but the majority of the members who answer questions are knowledgeable volunteers who simply enjoy helping other users. They have a choice of which questions they respond to and usually when someone posts with a lot of ranting and demanding help, that post will receive very few helpful answers. Your comments about "assemblers" providing support are common. Microsoft supports "System Builders" by providing a version of Windows (OEM) at a deep discount that they can pre-install on the systems that they create and sell. When a System Builder purchases these discounted versions, they must agree to provide support for those versions of Windows. This allows Microsoft to provide the discounted price. OK, now about the problems that you described. The folders that you are seeing that have the Everyone-Access Denied permissions are called Symbolic Links or Junctions(Soft Links). These folders are only present for one purpose. The names of certain folders in Windows have changed since Windows XP was released, but there are a lot of older software programs out there that are hard coded to look for these specific names when they are installed. The job of the Symbolic Link and Junction is to redirect these older programs to the folder with the new name in Windows 7. These 'soft link' folders are easily identified because they have a shortcut arrow on the folder icon. Like this: The arrow on the folder icon is there so that a user can recognize these soft link folders and avoid clicking on them. Soft link folders contain no useful content and are not designed to be used as regular folders. Like I said before, they are only there for one reason. In Windows 7, you will see a Soft Link location named C:\Documents and Settings, because that name was changed to C:\Users and this soft link will direct older applications to that new location. You also mentioned the Application Data junction, this soft link redirects older programs to C:\Users\username\AppData\Roaming. You should just ignore these soft links and not attempt to change the permissions on them, because Windows 7 will attempt to replace the soft link, and because doing so could result in creating an endless loop when one is accessed. This can also make it impossible to create a backup in Windows 7. Hope this helps. Thank You for using Windows 7 Ronnie Vernon MVP

Hello Ronnie Vernon Finally a professional and direct answer to my question I understood perfectly your answer and thank you for it. But it still remains the first part of my question. Why then that same arrow in folders like Start Menu, which I tried to access, to organize my start menu in my way, and I wasn’t allowed too. And the reason is the same: The everyone deny.

joao_silva, last night i had posted a riddle here. it's gone now. maybe it was badly worded after too much coffee. or maybe it was misinterpreted. did you by chance see it? you began this thread accusing a strange folder behavior as being some kind of bug. i had to laugh, because that's exactly how i am. a bit stubborn sometimes. that's partly what i had meant in my post. the other part of what i meant is this: you have done the experiment, and you have done some research. after changing the permissions on Application Data, you see it causes an endless loop. so, the first thing to do now is put it back the way you found it. next, let's figure out why it behaves like that. Application Data is a junction, a special kind of folder, which points (redirects) to another folder. that's what junctions do. in this case, it's pointing to the hidden folder C:\ProgramData in the root. C:ProgramData is a normal folder (albeit hidden) which in turn contains that junction Application Data. so yes, Application Data ---> ProgramData ---> Application Data ---> ProgramData ---> ...again and again forever. obviously, you do not want to open explorer on that thing after enabling those permissions, because it will simply explode. (enable Show all folders and Automatically expand in Folder Options to see it). that's not a bug. for some reason, MS thought it would be useful to make a folder Application Data that effectively contains itself. the MVP above made a very nice attempt at explaining it is for backward compatibility and nothing else. basically, we have no use for it at the GUI level and should leave it alone. it is intended to be accessed only by programs thru the api. you can also do the following to see that you can traverse those junctions (just like any other folder). in the explorer navigation bar, type C:\Users\All Users\Application Data\Adobe assuming you have Adobe reader installed on your system, you will be logged into that Adobe folder just fine (without having tinkered with its permissions). that's the path some programs will take. it is an alias for C:\ProgramData\Adobe. see how that works? it's just there for compatibility at the api level. that's all.

Heloo Grits n Gravy Your post didn't really get to me. I consider your answer as very useful. I want to thank you. To see just a little bit of what this question is doing between this forum users you must go to thread Windows Client TechCenter > Windows 7 IT Pro Forums > Windows 7 Security > File permissions in Windows 7 - "Take Ownership" reports success but I can't access my files and so understand why I say that an answer from Microsoft like the one I received (It was akknowledged by Nihcolas Li, Microsoft Moderator that sugested it like an answer) would have stop that thread and avoid some of us to do some erros. That thread has now more than 75 posts and 35.000 visitors. But the main question for me is not that one from the Aplication Data, which I have obsiously restored in it's original security state. The main question is that several other folders in all users and in my user account have the same problem. I'm talking of Start Menu, Desktop, Documents, Favorits, Models and Templates. I can't access anyone of them and the reason is the same. And I'm not the only one having that problem. Are them all soft links? That such little arrow is there. If so, where are the new folders which replace these.

well, you have enabled (unchecked) Hide protected operating system files (Recommended) in Folder Options. so you are seeing all those junctions (aliases) in the left pane of explorer. compatibility entries like All Users folder are thus visible. they don't really exist anymore in vista and win7. that's why they're aliased and redirected. they will vanish again when you put the checkmark back. if you want the power that comes with enabling this view, you have to put up with seeing inaccessible system entries like that. ignore them, as the MVP advised. or carefully tinker with them and learn some stuff. it's interesting, isn't it?

Hi joao_silva There are many soft links in Windows 7. **NOTE: In the following instructions, replace the word 'yourname' with the name of your user account. Go to Start / All Programs / Accessories Right click the Command Prompt and select Run As Administrator. Type: cd C:\Users\yourname Press Enter. At C:\Users\yourname> Type: dir /aL > c:\SoftLinks.txt Press Enter. Close the command prompt window. Open Windows Explorer and click the C: drive. Look for the SoftLinks.txt file and open it in Notepad. You will see a list of all the Junctions that are contained in your User folders. They will be in the following format. 08/07/09 01:15 PM <JUNCTION> Application Data[C:\Users\yourname\AppData\Roaming] This shows the date and time the junction was created. The <JUNCTION> identifies the soft link as a junction. The name of the junction: Application Data In the Brackets is the path that the junction points to:[C:\Users\yourname\AppData\Roaming] There should be at least 10 Junctions in that list. Here is the complete list from a users folder in a default installation Windows 7. Application Data [C:\Users\yourname\AppData\Roaming] Cookies [C:\Users\yourname\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Cookies] Local Settings [C:\Users\yourname\AppData\Local] My Documents [C:\Users\yourname\Documents] NetHood [C:\Users\yourname\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Network Shortcuts] PrintHood [C:\Users\yourname\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Printer Shortcuts] Recent [C:\Users\yourname\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Recent] SendTo [C:\Users\yourname\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\SendTo] Start Menu [C:\Users\yourname\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu] Templates [C:\Users\yourname\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Templates] I'll repeat again, it is best to simply ignore these. Hope this helps. Thank You for using Windows 7 Ronnie Vernon MVP

Thanks Ronnie. That is what I can call a complete information. Those are exactly the folders that I can't access. Now I know where they are and will use them in the right position. I will restore the everyone deny in all folders from where I removed it. Try to go to the forum Windows Client TechCenter > Windows 7 IT Pro Forums > Windows 7 Security > File permissions in Windows 7 - "Take Ownership" reports success but I can't access my files And you will see the confusion that goes by there. That thread has now more than 75 posts and 35.000 visitors. It began in May 2009. Now, tell me honestly if you think any assembler was able to provide that information? I understood perfectly what you said about the contract that Microsoft made with the resellers. But there is something you must be aware. Never a reseller told me what were the conditions of that agreement. He just wants a better price to sell his product. And we too, to buy the product. But I think that we should be clearly (undoubtly for you) informed that it is the end user, we, which will pay that discount that you give to the assembler in order to have your OS installed in the new machines. I didn’t know that my license is no longer valid if I change my motherboard, because of a malfunction or to upgrade my computer. I didn’t know that Microsoft transferred the responsibility of support to the seller. Nobody told me that, when I bought the computer. And never anybody told me that, in all the stores which I frequent. I can grant you that if I would be informed of those conditions I would never buy a computer with an OEM license. And Ronnie, I think that, if Microsoft objective is to well serve its clients, surely it won’t be that way. Well, thanks again for your valuable help.

Well. Theres something more Ronnie Can you explain me please why all my start menu definitions are in all users and not in my account, in his correct place, in AppData\Microsoft\Windows\Sart Menu? And, as start menu is a soft link in all users, where does it redirect me to? In all users theres not an AppData folder.

Hi joao_silva The items in the Start Menu/All Programs manu can come from 2 different locations. From your specific account: C:\Users\yourname\AppData\Roaming\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu From the All Users location: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu If click the Start Button and right click All Programs, you will see the 2 options. Open takes you to your account location and Open All Users takes you to the all users location. The Shortcuts in the specific user account location only appears in the All Programs list for that user. The Shortcuts in the All Users location appears on the All Programs list for every user on the computer. Hope this helps. Thank You for using Windows 7 Ronnie Vernon MVP

"Hope this helps." Offcourse it did Ronnie Thanks a lot

dir /aL > c:\SoftLinks.txt building on your example, you can get a list of every link in the computer by typing: dir \ /al /s /r > %userprofile%\desktop\all.txt in all.txt, two different groups appear with the exact same 6 entries: Directory of C:\ProgramData and Directory of C:\Users\All Users it is not listed (because it doesn't begin with a real folder), but this would be the XP equivalent alias: C:\Documents and Settings\All Users every item listed is a <JUNCTION> except one. All Users is a <SYMLINKD>. how come?

Hi GnG Here are a few links to articles that were written just prior to the release of Windows Vista. This was when these 'new' reparse points were first used extensively in Windows and they were really hot news back then. They give some insights into the 'what, why, and how' about this subject. Smart Software: Symbolic Links in Vista Scott Hanselman - Windows Vista, Junctions and moving My Documents to another drive. Scott Hanselman - More on Vista Reparse Points Regards, Thank You for using Windows 7 Ronnie Vernon MVP

thanks again for great info. i'll need a little while with some coffee to fully take in the latter articles. the 1st one pretty much says it all, though. "Symbolic links store relative paths, while junctions uses absolute paths." it also clarifies some mis-info about using them over volume boundaries. either works fine. to test, i just made a junction and a symlink on my desktop, each pointing to a folder in a usb flash drive. works just fine either way. (it did with vista too). i'm still curious why MS chose a symlink for All Users, but junctions for all the rest. it just kind of stands out.. btw - did you notice the unneeded parameter /r in my post above? i just discovered it, and i'm so pleased with it that i had to post it somewhere. it's been there since vista. haha, i've got some backreading to catch up on.

i'm still curious why MS chose a symlink for All Users, but junctions for all the rest. it just kind of stands out.. Hi GnG That one is a mystery? I tried tracking down information about 'why' the one symbolic link awhile back and was unsuccessful. The only thing I could see was that the location for that Symlink is different from all of the other Junctions. All Users (ProgramData) is the parent folder where the information is stored that affects every user account on the system. All of the other parent folders that are Junctions only affect a single user. Also, All Users (ProgramData) are the only 2 locations that contain a junction that points to a separate Desktop folder (Public\Desktop). However, why this would make a difference is anyone's guess? Regards, Thank You for using Windows 7 Ronnie Vernon MVP