I have been looking at this issue for several days and cannot seem to get it resolved. We recently installed a new E2K10 server and have moved one mailbox and testing public folder replication for testing. E-mail From E2K7 to E2K10 perfect, however, e-mail and public replication from E2K10 to to E2K7 does not work. In the Queue Viewer I see 451 4.4.0 Primary target IP address responded with: "451 5.7.3 Cannot achieve Server authentication" Atempt...... I also see that same error in the connectivity logs. After baning around this groups and several other I still have not had any success and wonder what is it. I have cehcked the Default Receive Connection on E2K7 and on Authentication Tab I have TLS and not the sub section, basic AUth and its sub section, Exchange Server, and Integrated Windows all checked. ON the Permission Tab I have anonymous, Exchange users, Exchange servers, and Legacy Exchange Servers all selected. I have tried several combination on all of these on both servers with no luck. Any other ideas to try? I am all ears, well eyes in this case. TIA Jim

Hello Jim This could be a problem with the TLS negotiate. Please check the application log for any transport TLS errors and post if you find any. Thanks Tony

Good catch. There was one and I have resolved it. Restarted trasnport service on both systems and still have the same error. Anymore ideas? I am all out. TIA Jim

Please post the output of the following command: get-receiveconnector |fl Also, please run the mailflow troubleshooter which is found in the "toolbox". Please could you supply some further information about the environment. How many servers, AD sites etc.

Try solution here same issue as yours 2010 can't send to 2007. Ensure that Transport Layer Security (TLS) check box and the Exchange Server authentication check box are only enabled and uncheck all others "451 5.7.3 Cannot achieve Exchange Server Authentication" http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/exchangesvradmin/thread/033c6218-9e8a-4bde-aa43-04ca59351501James Chong MCITP | EA | EMA; MCSE | M+, S+ Security+, Project+, ITIL msexchangetips.blogspot.com

Sorry for the dealy, we had 33 servers, 3 DC/GC, 2 mail 1 E2K7 and 1 E2K10 with the plan of migrating to E2K10. I ran the mailflow troubleshooter on E2K10 and here are the results -Information Items are all blue -Remote delivery queue fails -Direct connection to e2k7 works -E2K10 DNS Availability pass -E2K10 Area DNS REcords pass -Remote SMTP status fails - No Hosts record found for server e2k7. I can ping it by name from e2k10 and it is successful -Area Remote SMTP Status to e2k7 Yellow packets needs to be fragmented -No SMTP instance configuration found -Remote SMTP Status MSExchange Transport on e2k7 is running -No relevant message tracking log entires were found -Area Remote SMTP Status mail acceptance fails to e2k7 -Receive Connector Analysis remote server e2k7 has HT role installed -No thrid party apps -SMTP Queue status - remote deliver queue (e2k10\118) is in retry Output of command RunspaceId : f83c7a6b-cecd-413c-8c6c-a4169f621d33 AuthMechanism : Tls, Integrated, BasicAuth, BasicAuthRequireTLS, ExchangeServer Banner : 220 mail.company.net ESMPT Ready BinaryMimeEnabled : True Bindings : {192.168.10.54:25, :::25, 0.0.0.0:25} ChunkingEnabled : True DefaultDomain : DeliveryStatusNotificationEnabled : True EightBitMimeEnabled : True BareLinefeedRejectionEnabled : False DomainSecureEnabled : False EnhancedStatusCodesEnabled : True LongAddressesEnabled : False OrarEnabled : False SuppressXAnonymousTls : False AdvertiseClientSettings : False Fqdn : amse2k7.company.com Comment : Enabled : True ConnectionTimeout : 00:10:00 ConnectionInactivityTimeout : 00:05:00 MessageRateLimit : unlimited MessageRateSource : IPAddress MaxInboundConnection : 5000 MaxInboundConnectionPerSource : unlimited MaxInboundConnectionPercentagePerSource : 100 MaxHeaderSize : 64 KB (65,536 bytes) MaxHopCount : 30 MaxLocalHopCount : 8 MaxLogonFailures : 3 MaxMessageSize : 50 MB (52,428,800 bytes) MaxProtocolErrors : 5 MaxRecipientsPerMessage : 5000 PermissionGroups : AnonymousUsers, ExchangeUsers, ExchangeServers, ExchangeLegacyServers PipeliningEnabled : True ProtocolLoggingLevel : Verbose RemoteIPRanges : {0.0.0.0-255.255.255.255, ::-ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff} RequireEHLODomain : False RequireTLS : False EnableAuthGSSAPI : False ExtendedProtectionPolicy : None LiveCredentialEnabled : False TlsDomainCapabilities : {} Server : AMSE2K7 SizeEnabled : EnabledWithoutValue TarpitInterval : 00:00:05 MaxAcknowledgementDelay : 00:00:30 AdminDisplayName : ExchangeVersion : 0.1 (8.0.535.0) Name : Default AMSE2K7 DistinguishedName : CN=Default AMSE2K7,CN=SMTP Receive Connectors,CN=Protocols,CN=AMSE2K7,CN=Serv ers,CN=Exchange Administrative Group (FYDIBOHF23SPDLT),CN=Administrative Grou ps,CN=ASSET,CN=Microsoft Exchange,CN=Services,CN=Configuration,DC=company,DC=com Identity : AMSE2K7\Default AMSE2K7 Guid : 77663922-54a1-40c5-bc28-6992d5168273 ObjectCategory : company.com/Configuration/Schema/ms-Exch-Smtp-Receive-Connector ObjectClass : {top, msExchSmtpReceiveConnector} WhenChanged : 9/19/2011 11:17:10 AM WhenCreated : 8/13/2009 2:16:07 PM WhenChangedUTC : 9/19/2011 6:17:10 PM WhenCreatedUTC : 8/13/2009 9:16:07 PM OrganizationId : OriginatingServer : AMSDC01.company.com IsValid : True RunspaceId : f83c7a6b-cecd-413c-8c6c-a4169f621d33 AuthMechanism : Tls, Integrated, ExchangeServer Banner : 220 mail.company.net ESMTP Ready BinaryMimeEnabled : True Bindings : {:::587, 0.0.0.0:587} ChunkingEnabled : True DefaultDomain : DeliveryStatusNotificationEnabled : True EightBitMimeEnabled : True BareLinefeedRejectionEnabled : False DomainSecureEnabled : False EnhancedStatusCodesEnabled : True LongAddressesEnabled : False OrarEnabled : False SuppressXAnonymousTls : False AdvertiseClientSettings : False Fqdn : amse2k7.company.com Comment : Enabled : True ConnectionTimeout : 00:10:00 ConnectionInactivityTimeout : 00:05:00 MessageRateLimit : 600 MessageRateSource : IPAddress MaxInboundConnection : 5000 MaxInboundConnectionPerSource : 20 MaxInboundConnectionPercentagePerSource : 2 MaxHeaderSize : 64 KB (65,536 bytes) MaxHopCount : 30 MaxLocalHopCount : 8 MaxLogonFailures : 3 MaxMessageSize : 50 MB (52,428,800 bytes) MaxProtocolErrors : 5 MaxRecipientsPerMessage : 200 PermissionGroups : AnonymousUsers, ExchangeUsers, ExchangeServers PipeliningEnabled : True ProtocolLoggingLevel : Verbose RemoteIPRanges : {::-ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff, 0.0.0.0-255.255.255.255} RequireEHLODomain : False RequireTLS : False EnableAuthGSSAPI : True ExtendedProtectionPolicy : None LiveCredentialEnabled : False TlsDomainCapabilities : {} Server : AMSE2K7 SizeEnabled : Enabled TarpitInterval : 00:00:05 MaxAcknowledgementDelay : 00:00:30 AdminDisplayName : ExchangeVersion : 0.1 (8.0.535.0) Name : Client AMSE2K7 DistinguishedName : CN=Client AMSE2K7,CN=SMTP Receive Connectors,CN=Protocols,CN=AMSE2K7,CN=Serve rs,CN=Exchange Administrative Group (FYDIBOHF23SPDLT),CN=Administrative Group s,CN=ASSET,CN=Microsoft Exchange,CN=Services,CN=Configuration,DC=company,DC=com Identity : AMSE2K7\Client AMSE2K7 Guid : ee298680-c843-4a16-a969-7cdea7b63033 ObjectCategory : company.com/Configuration/Schema/ms-Exch-Smtp-Receive-Connector ObjectClass : {top, msExchSmtpReceiveConnector} WhenChanged : 9/19/2011 10:59:29 AM WhenCreated : 8/13/2009 2:16:07 PM WhenChangedUTC : 9/19/2011 5:59:29 PM WhenCreatedUTC : 8/13/2009 9:16:07 PM OrganizationId : OriginatingServer : AMSDC01.company.com IsValid : True RunspaceId : f83c7a6b-cecd-413c-8c6c-a4169f621d33 AuthMechanism : ExternalAuthoritative Banner : BinaryMimeEnabled : True Bindings : {0.0.0.0:25} ChunkingEnabled : True DefaultDomain : DeliveryStatusNotificationEnabled : True EightBitMimeEnabled : True BareLinefeedRejectionEnabled : False DomainSecureEnabled : False EnhancedStatusCodesEnabled : True LongAddressesEnabled : False OrarEnabled : False SuppressXAnonymousTls : False AdvertiseClientSettings : False Fqdn : amse2k7.company.com Comment : Enabled : True ConnectionTimeout : 00:10:00 ConnectionInactivityTimeout : 00:05:00 MessageRateLimit : unlimited MessageRateSource : IPAddress MaxInboundConnection : 5000 MaxInboundConnectionPerSource : 20 MaxInboundConnectionPercentagePerSource : 2 MaxHeaderSize : 64 KB (65,536 bytes) MaxHopCount : 30 MaxLocalHopCount : 8 MaxLogonFailures : 3 MaxMessageSize : 50 MB (52,428,800 bytes) MaxProtocolErrors : 5 MaxRecipientsPerMessage : 200 PermissionGroups : AnonymousUsers, ExchangeServers PipeliningEnabled : True ProtocolLoggingLevel : None RemoteIPRanges : {192.168.10.58} RequireEHLODomain : False RequireTLS : False EnableAuthGSSAPI : False ExtendedProtectionPolicy : None LiveCredentialEnabled : False TlsDomainCapabilities : {} Server : AMSE2K7 SizeEnabled : Enabled TarpitInterval : 00:00:05 MaxAcknowledgementDelay : 00:00:30 AdminDisplayName : ExchangeVersion : 0.1 (8.0.535.0) Name : fax.ams DistinguishedName : CN=fax.ams,CN=SMTP Receive Connectors,CN=Protocols,CN=AMSE2K7,CN=Servers,CN=E xchange Administrative Group (FYDIBOHF23SPDLT),CN=Administrative Groups,CN=AS SET,CN=Microsoft Exchange,CN=Services,CN=Configuration,DC=company,DC=com Identity : AMSE2K7\fax.ams Guid : 189d5797-93e9-4f8f-9486-e2b0099fda70 ObjectCategory : company.com/Configuration/Schema/ms-Exch-Smtp-Receive-Connector ObjectClass : {top, msExchSmtpReceiveConnector} WhenChanged : 1/5/2011 10:52:45 AM WhenCreated : 11/19/2009 1:22:45 PM WhenChangedUTC : 1/5/2011 6:52:45 PM WhenCreatedUTC : 11/19/2009 9:22:45 PM OrganizationId : OriginatingServer : AMSDC01.company.com IsValid : True See the reset in the next post

Here is the rest RunspaceId : f83c7a6b-cecd-413c-8c6c-a4169f621d33 AuthMechanism : Tls, ExternalAuthoritative Banner : BinaryMimeEnabled : True Bindings : {192.168.10.54:25} ChunkingEnabled : True DefaultDomain : DeliveryStatusNotificationEnabled : True EightBitMimeEnabled : True BareLinefeedRejectionEnabled : False DomainSecureEnabled : False EnhancedStatusCodesEnabled : True LongAddressesEnabled : False OrarEnabled : False SuppressXAnonymousTls : False AdvertiseClientSettings : False Fqdn : amse2k7.company.com Comment : Enabled : True ConnectionTimeout : 00:10:00 ConnectionInactivityTimeout : 00:05:00 MessageRateLimit : unlimited MessageRateSource : IPAddress MaxInboundConnection : 5000 MaxInboundConnectionPerSource : 20 MaxInboundConnectionPercentagePerSource : 2 MaxHeaderSize : 64 KB (65,536 bytes) MaxHopCount : 30 MaxLocalHopCount : 8 MaxLogonFailures : 3 MaxMessageSize : 50 MB (52,428,800 bytes) MaxProtocolErrors : 5 MaxRecipientsPerMessage : 200 PermissionGroups : AnonymousUsers, ExchangeServers PipeliningEnabled : True ProtocolLoggingLevel : None RemoteIPRanges : {192.168.10.50, 192.168.10.32, 192.168.10.31, 192.168.10.24, 172.16.2.21, 192 .168.11.235, 192.168.11.234, 192.168.10.98, 192.168.10.16, 192.168.10.20, 192 .168.10.84, 172.16.2.25, 172.16.2.24, 172.16.2.19, 172.16.2.20, 172.16.2.26.. .} RequireEHLODomain : False RequireTLS : False EnableAuthGSSAPI : False ExtendedProtectionPolicy : None LiveCredentialEnabled : False TlsDomainCapabilities : {} Server : AMSE2K7 SizeEnabled : Enabled TarpitInterval : 00:00:05 MaxAcknowledgementDelay : 00:00:30 AdminDisplayName : ExchangeVersion : 0.1 (8.0.535.0) Name : Allow Relay DistinguishedName : CN=Allow Relay,CN=SMTP Receive Connectors,CN=Protocols,CN=AMSE2K7,CN=Servers, CN=Exchange Administrative Group (FYDIBOHF23SPDLT),CN=Administrative Groups,C N=ASSET,CN=Microsoft Exchange,CN=Services,CN=Configuration,DC=company,DC=com Identity : AMSE2K7\Allow Relay Guid : 51d3e722-6f46-4204-982a-01147b59500f ObjectCategory : company.com/Configuration/Schema/ms-Exch-Smtp-Receive-Connector ObjectClass : {top, msExchSmtpReceiveConnector} WhenChanged : 9/19/2011 12:00:49 PM WhenCreated : 11/20/2009 7:43:21 AM WhenChangedUTC : 9/19/2011 7:00:49 PM WhenCreatedUTC : 11/20/2009 3:43:21 PM OrganizationId : OriginatingServer : AMSDC01.company.com IsValid : True RunspaceId : f83c7a6b-cecd-413c-8c6c-a4169f621d33 AuthMechanism : Tls, ExchangeServer Banner : BinaryMimeEnabled : True Bindings : {:::25, 0.0.0.0:25} ChunkingEnabled : True DefaultDomain : DeliveryStatusNotificationEnabled : True EightBitMimeEnabled : True BareLinefeedRejectionEnabled : False DomainSecureEnabled : False EnhancedStatusCodesEnabled : True LongAddressesEnabled : False OrarEnabled : False SuppressXAnonymousTls : False AdvertiseClientSettings : False Fqdn : E2K10.company.com Comment : Enabled : True ConnectionTimeout : 00:10:00 ConnectionInactivityTimeout : 00:05:00 MessageRateLimit : unlimited MessageRateSource : IPAddress MaxInboundConnection : 5000 MaxInboundConnectionPerSource : unlimited MaxInboundConnectionPercentagePerSource : 100 MaxHeaderSize : 64 KB (65,536 bytes) MaxHopCount : 60 MaxLocalHopCount : 12 MaxLogonFailures : 3 MaxMessageSize : 10 MB (10,485,760 bytes) MaxProtocolErrors : 5 MaxRecipientsPerMessage : 5000 PermissionGroups : ExchangeUsers, ExchangeServers, ExchangeLegacyServers PipeliningEnabled : True ProtocolLoggingLevel : None RemoteIPRanges : {::-ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff, 0.0.0.0-255.255.255.255} RequireEHLODomain : False RequireTLS : False EnableAuthGSSAPI : False ExtendedProtectionPolicy : None LiveCredentialEnabled : False TlsDomainCapabilities : {} Server : E2K10 SizeEnabled : EnabledWithoutValue TarpitInterval : 00:00:05 MaxAcknowledgementDelay : 00:00:30 AdminDisplayName : ExchangeVersion : 0.1 (8.0.535.0) Name : Default E2K10 DistinguishedName : CN=Default E2K10,CN=SMTP Receive Connectors,CN=Protocols,CN=E2K10,CN=Servers, CN=Exchange Administrative Group (FYDIBOHF23SPDLT),CN=Administrative Groups,C N=ASSET,CN=Microsoft Exchange,CN=Services,CN=Configuration,DC=company,DC=com Identity : E2K10\Default E2K10 Guid : ab86704b-fef2-4c95-8332-5dc2f361f4a6 ObjectCategory : company.com/Configuration/Schema/ms-Exch-Smtp-Receive-Connector ObjectClass : {top, msExchSmtpReceiveConnector} WhenChanged : 9/19/2011 10:56:04 AM WhenCreated : 9/14/2011 9:48:11 AM WhenChangedUTC : 9/19/2011 5:56:04 PM WhenCreatedUTC : 9/14/2011 4:48:11 PM OrganizationId : OriginatingServer : AMSDC01.company.com IsValid : True RunspaceId : f83c7a6b-cecd-413c-8c6c-a4169f621d33 AuthMechanism : Tls, ExchangeServer Banner : BinaryMimeEnabled : True Bindings : {:::587, 0.0.0.0:587} ChunkingEnabled : True DefaultDomain : DeliveryStatusNotificationEnabled : True EightBitMimeEnabled : True BareLinefeedRejectionEnabled : False DomainSecureEnabled : False EnhancedStatusCodesEnabled : True LongAddressesEnabled : False OrarEnabled : False SuppressXAnonymousTls : False AdvertiseClientSettings : False Fqdn : e2k10.company.com Comment : Enabled : True ConnectionTimeout : 00:10:00 ConnectionInactivityTimeout : 00:05:00 MessageRateLimit : 5 MessageRateSource : User MaxInboundConnection : 5000 MaxInboundConnectionPerSource : 20 MaxInboundConnectionPercentagePerSource : 2 MaxHeaderSize : 64 KB (65,536 bytes) MaxHopCount : 60 MaxLocalHopCount : 12 MaxLogonFailures : 3 MaxMessageSize : 10 MB (10,485,760 bytes) MaxProtocolErrors : 5 MaxRecipientsPerMessage : 200 PermissionGroups : ExchangeUsers, ExchangeServers PipeliningEnabled : True ProtocolLoggingLevel : None RemoteIPRanges : {::-ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff:ffff, 0.0.0.0-255.255.255.255} RequireEHLODomain : False RequireTLS : False EnableAuthGSSAPI : True ExtendedProtectionPolicy : None LiveCredentialEnabled : False TlsDomainCapabilities : {} Server : E2K10 SizeEnabled : Enabled TarpitInterval : 00:00:05 MaxAcknowledgementDelay : 00:00:30 AdminDisplayName : ExchangeVersion : 0.1 (8.0.535.0) Name : Client E2K10 DistinguishedName : CN=Client E2K10,CN=SMTP Receive Connectors,CN=Protocols,CN=E2K10,CN=Servers,C N=Exchange Administrative Group (FYDIBOHF23SPDLT),CN=Administrative Groups,CN =ASSET,CN=Microsoft Exchange,CN=Services,CN=Configuration,DC=company,DC=com Identity : E2K10\Client E2K10 Guid : 945034a3-bdd5-44af-94d0-c9596d2affc1 ObjectCategory : company.com/Configuration/Schema/ms-Exch-Smtp-Receive-Connector ObjectClass : {top, msExchSmtpReceiveConnector} WhenChanged : 9/19/2011 10:56:33 AM WhenCreated : 9/14/2011 9:48:11 AM WhenChangedUTC : 9/19/2011 5:56:33 PM WhenCreatedUTC : 9/14/2011 4:48:11 PM OrganizationId : OriginatingServer : AMSDC01.assetmarketingsystems.com IsValid : True TIA Jim

Try creating a new receive connector as below on your 2007. Network: Receive mail from a specific IP of Exchange 2010 Hub Authentication: TLS, Exchange Server Authentication Permission Groups: Exchange Servers James Chong MCITP | EA | EMA; MCSE | M+, S+ Security+, Project+, ITIL msexchangetips.blogspot.com

Jamestechman, Thanks for the idea's and tried both with no issue. Using the mail flow analyzer on E2K10 I find one curious error When it tried the Remote delivery Queue(s) DNS Record Analysis it fails with No "Host" record found for server e2k7.company.com. If I go the command prompt on e2k10 and try to ping the other server by name everything is fine. Also when it tried to direct connect and see if Remote SMTP Services are running everyhting checks out fine. I added a entry into the hosts fine on e2k10 for e2k7 and then re-ran the mail flow analyzer and it still failed. So it appeares to be a DNS issue I just cannot figure out where. TIA, Jim

On your 2010 send connector, network tab are you using "use the external dns lookup..." option? Also have you tried bouncing the transport service? Also on the 2010 server run nslookup against each dns server you have configured nslookup server 10.x.x.x (your first dns server) 2007servername then repeat for second dns server to eliminate possibly one dns is not working correctly. If not and you get query refused bounce the dns server service on the DC and restart transport service. James Chong MCITP | EA | EMA; MCSE | M+, S+ Security+, Project+, ITIL msexchangetips.blogspot.com

No I am not using use the external dns lookup option at this time, although I did try it. Each time I make a change to a connector send or receive I restart the transport service. Ran the nslookup test while logged into esk10 and switch dsn servers and both came back with the corect answer. While its seems like a simple problem is has been a good one. I am still looking for other options. TIA, Jim

Can you check your default receive connector on 2007 and see if windows integrated is checked in auth tab?James Chong MCITP | EA | EMA; MCSE | M+, S+ Security+, Project+, ITIL msexchangetips.blogspot.com

Ok TLS, Basic Authentication, Offer Basic authentication only after starting TLS, Exchange Server Authenication, Integrated Windows authentication are all checked the rest are not. TIA Jim

Hi, Try doing a Telnet to the server and drop an email to exchange 2007. Check certificates on both server for SMTP service. Is it valid? Only enable Default receive connector. Enable verbose logging on Default Receive connector. Also enabled the logging on the server on Intra-Organization-Connector by running the command Set-TransportServer <Server_Name> -IntraOrganizationConnectorProtocolLoggingLevel Verbose. Force the queues - Checked the log Check the protocol log on the 2007 serverPlease remember to click Mark as Answer on the post that helps you, and to click Unmark as Answer if a marked post does not actually answer your question. This can be beneficial to other community members reading the thread.

Ok, tried telnet and it failed from e2k10 to e2k7, both certs are valid used get-exchangecertificate |fl and both data are in 2012, enabeled logging what am I looking for, I have no Intra-Organization-Connector that I can find when I ran the command if failed to find the connector. TIA Jim

Here is the entry from the connectivity log on e2k10 2011-09-21T00:19:22.035Z,08CE45DE603CBFC7,MAPI,it,+,Delivery;QueueLength=1;DatabaseHealth=-1;MailboxServer=E2K10.assetmarketingsystems.com 2011-09-21T00:19:22.035Z,08CE45DE603CBFC7,MAPI,it,>,Starting delivery 2011-09-21T00:19:22.051Z,08CE45DE603CBFC7,MAPI,it,>,Connecting to server E2K10.assetmarketingsystems.com session type Mailbox 2011-09-21T00:19:22.082Z,08CE45DE603CBFC7,MAPI,it,-,Messages: 1 Bytes: 2532 Recipients: 1 2011-09-21T00:22:15.188Z,08CE45DE603CBFC8,SMTP,hub version 8,+,SmtpRelayWithinAdSite 61027a30-e9a9-4c2d-acb5-c1efc96d5d8b;QueueLength=93 2011-09-21T00:22:15.188Z,08CE45DE603CBFC8,SMTP,hub version 8,>,amse2k7.assetmarketingsystems.com[192.168.10.54] 2011-09-21T00:22:15.188Z,08CE45DE603CBFC8,SMTP,hub version 8,>,Established connection to 192.168.10.54 2011-09-21T00:22:15.188Z,08CE45DE603CBFC8,SMTP,hub version 8,-,Messages: 0 Bytes: 0 (Retry : Cannot achieve Exchange Server authentication) Jim

Have you ever had the classic left hand not talking to the right hand. Well this was the problem. We have always been company.com, well out network team added a company.net and didn't tell me. It also showed an error in DNS which was not properly replicating. So fixed replication added a proper MX for the new company.net and presto mail flow is now working. I feel like such a smuck. I thank everyone for their assisatance and ideas? Jim